[PATCH guix-artwork] website: base: home: Add 'DOWNLOAD LATEST' button.

Open

Details

4 participants

Ludovic Courtès
(
pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
zimoun

Owner: unassigned

Submitted by: (

Severity: normal

(

( wrote on 4 Dec 2022 20:50

Recipients:(address . guix-patches@gnu.org)(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)

Message-ID:20221204195007.20997-1-paren@disroot.org

* website/apps/base/templates/home.scm (home-t)[#:content]: Add a

'DOWNLOAD LATEST' button.

---

Heya Guix!

I thought the latest image was a wee bit too hard to find, so I added

a button for it here.

-- (

website/apps/base/templates/home.scm | 14 ++++++++++----

1 file changed, 10 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

Toggle diff (32 lines)diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
index 7b72da8..db1707b 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
@@ -106,13 +106,19 @@ languages (EDSLs) to "
        ,(button-big
          #:label (apply string-append
                         (C_ "button" `("DOWNLOAD v" ,(latest-guix-version) "")))
-	 #:url (guix-url "download/")
-	 #:light #true)
+	     #:url (guix-url "download/")
+	     #:light #true)
        " " ; A space for readability in non-CSS browsers.
+       ,(button-big
+         #:label (apply string-append
+                        (C_ "button" `("DOWNLOAD LATEST")))
+	     #:url (guix-url "download/latest/")
+	     #:light #true)
+       " "
        ,(button-big
          #:label (C_ "button" "CONTRIBUTE")
-	 #:url (guix-url "contribute/")
-	 #:light #true)))
+	     #:url (guix-url "contribute/")
+	     #:light #true)))
 
      ;; Discover Guix.
      (section

base-commit: 7b8b85e5260aecec227ecc7ea392d105cbaa9626
-- 
2.38.1

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 4 Dec 2022 22:50

Recipients:(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:87edterg7x.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hello (

"( via Guix-patches" via <guix-patches@gnu.org> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> * website/apps/base/templates/home.scm (home-t)[#:content]: Add a

> 'DOWNLOAD LATEST' button.

Good idea.

Would you add a copyright line or copyright disclaimer line and send an

updated patch?

Toggle quote (8 lines)

> #:label (apply string-append

> (C_ "button" `("DOWNLOAD v" ,(latest-guix-version) "")))

> […]

> " " ; A space for readability in non-CSS browsers.

> + ,(button-big

> + #:label (apply string-append

> + (C_ "button" `("DOWNLOAD LATEST")))

In the DOWNLOAD LATEST button, could you remove the (apply string-append

and its now unmatched parenthesis?

It is a trick to concatenate the translations for "DOWNLOAD v", the

latest-guix-version and the translation for "". But for "DOWNLOAD

LATEST", it is unneeded.

And maybe untabify the lines you change.

Other than that, LGTM, thank you!

Regards,

Florian

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 4 Dec 2022 22:58

Recipients:(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:87a642rfui.fsf@pelzflorian.de

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> Would you add a copyright line or copyright disclaimer line and send an

> updated patch?

P.S. I am unsure if a copyright line is already warranted, but in doubt,

I ask for one.

Regards,

Florian

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 4 Dec 2022 23:03

Recipients:(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:875yeqrfmz.fsf@pelzflorian.de

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:

Toggle quote (6 lines)

> "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:

>> Would you add a copyright line or copyright disclaimer line and send an

>> updated patch?

> P.S. I am unsure if a copyright line is already warranted, but in doubt,

> I ask for one.

Excuse my bad judgment. No updated patch needed. I will apply as is.

(

( wrote on 5 Dec 2022 08:01

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:COTOVXVNQVDJ.2BRBC6YCRWDT5@guix-framework

Heya,

On Sun Dec 4, 2022 at 9:50 PM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> Would you add a copyright line or copyright disclaimer line and send an

> updated patch?

Oops :)

Toggle quote (7 lines)

> In the DOWNLOAD LATEST button, could you remove the (apply string-append

> and its now unmatched parenthesis?

> It is a trick to concatenate the translations for "DOWNLOAD v", the

> latest-guix-version and the translation for "". But for "DOWNLOAD

> LATEST", it is unneeded.

Ah. I'll do that, yeah :)

-- (

(

( wrote on 5 Dec 2022 08:02

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:COTOW8MFMWQB.19B3IUBVQP38E@guix-framework

On Sun Dec 4, 2022 at 10:03 PM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> Excuse my bad judgment. No updated patch needed. I will apply as is.

Oh, okay, never mind :)

-- (

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 5 Dec 2022 09:00

Recipients:(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:878rjm9t5l.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hi (

Sorry for my mails yesternight.

After some sleep, I have second thoughts.

With prominent links to 1.3.0 and to the latest version, users might

think, of course they want latest. The 1.3.0 version got QA testing and

is more likely to not get broken, even though latest might work on newer

hardware.

So maybe better not lead users to the untested version.

Agreed? Can I close the bug without applying the patch?

Regards,

Florian

zimoun wrote on 5 Dec 2022 10:00

Recipients:(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:86tu2a444p.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On Mon, 05 Dec 2022 at 09:00, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> So maybe better not lead users to the untested version.

> Agreed? Can I close the bug without applying the patch?

Well, maybe the « latest » could be more discoverable. For instance,

when an user is here:

https://guix.gnu.org/

then they click to the button « DOWNLOAD v1.3.0 ». Moreover nothing

mention upfront the latest version. The user has to click on top right

Download and select «Latest» – probably not done when they have already

seen the button. I agree that another «Download latest» on the

frontpage could be confusing.

Instead, I propose, on the webpage,

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

and in the header,

As of version 1.3.0, the standalone Guix System can be installed

on an i686, x86_64, ARMv7, or AArch64 machine. It uses the

Linux-Libre kernel and the GNU Shepherd init

system. Alternately, GNU Guix can be installed as an additional

package manager on top of an installed Linux-based system.

this sentence could be added,

Toggle snippet (4 lines)

These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

rolling release model, you might prefer to use [latest images](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/)

WDYT?

Cheers,

simon

(

( wrote on 5 Dec 2022 17:51

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:COU1FBLY97M0.2YE4BXVWNT9MA@guix-framework

On Mon Dec 5, 2022 at 8:00 AM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

Toggle quote (5 lines)

> With prominent links to 1.3.0 and to the latest version, users might

> think, of course they want latest. The 1.3.0 version got QA testing and

> is more likely to not get broken, even though latest might work on newer

> hardware.

Yes, I thought of this possibility. How about "Download nightly" instead?

-- (

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 5 Dec 2022 18:06

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87edtdu6ew.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hi all.

My reluctance is because there isn’t an advantage to using the latest image.

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

Toggle quote (5 lines)

> this sentence could be added,

> These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

> rolling release model, you might prefer to use [latest images](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/)

This is not a reason. On the contrary, users of 1.3.0 will get the

current software once they upgrade.

I can think of one consequence of using the 1.3.0 image: Users might

have to adapt the generated config.scm once they pull and reconfigure.

For example, because of changes in the swap-space definition. But this

isn’t really a downside, since the OS configuration is the reason to use

Guix on Guix System instead of a foreign distro.

There maybe is hardware that is not yet supported on standard installer

images. But it doesn’t need to be mentioned. There are no cutting edge

hardware users on a libre distro, are there? Except those using tainted

versions of the installer, not offered here.

Lastly, I’m reluctant to change existing sentences, because they will

not be translated soon enough.

Am I mistaken?

Regards,

Florian

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 5 Dec 2022 18:41

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87359t929h.fsf@pelzflorian.de

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> My reluctance is because there isn’t an advantage to using the latest image.

> […]

> Am I mistaken?

Granted, there were bugs in the installer like https://issues.guix.gnu.org/58377.

zimoun wrote on 6 Dec 2022 12:22

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)

Message-ID:86edtckc8l.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On Mon, 05 Dec 2022 at 18:06, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (9 lines)

> zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

>> this sentence could be added,

>> These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

>> rolling release model, you might prefer to use [latest images](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/)

> This is not a reason. On the contrary, users of 1.3.0 will get the

> current software once they upgrade.

It appears to me that this choice is up to the user. :-)

BTW, since the release are less frequent than we would all like, some

bugs in the v1.3 installer had been fixed. I do not have examples at

hand (because I am too lazy to dig the bug tracker ;-)) but some reports

have been closed with “already fixed, give a try to the new installer”.

Toggle quote (11 lines)> I can think of one consequence of using the 1.3.0 image: Users might
> have to adapt the generated config.scm once they pull and reconfigure.
> For example, because of changes in the swap-space definition.  But this
> isn’t really a downside, since the OS configuration is the reason to use
> Guix on Guix System instead of a foreign distro.
>
> There maybe is hardware that is not yet supported on standard installer
> images.  But it doesn’t need to be mentioned.  There are no cutting edge
> hardware users on a libre distro, are there?  Except those using tainted
> versions of the installer, not offered here.

Well, I think it is worth to mention from this webpage

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

the latest development webpage

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/

Therefore, I still propose on the webpage https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

to add this sentence:

Toggle snippet (5 lines)

These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

rolling release model, the [latest development images are

here](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/).

WDYT?

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> Lastly, I’m reluctant to change existing sentences, because they will

> not be translated soon enough.

To me, this patch is orthogonal to release 1.4. Well, if you think it

is better to apply after the publication of the release, that’s fine. :-)

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 6 Dec 2022 17:33

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87o7sg5w5n.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Yes (’s patch was merely about discoverability of the latest installer

page, that already exists. Also the latest installer page has a warning

that points users to the standard installer. So we could push

Toggle diff (17 lines)diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
index 7b72da8..26d07cd 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
@@ -109,6 +109,11 @@ languages (EDSLs) to "
         #:url (guix-url "download/")
         #:light #true)
        " " ; A space for readability in non-CSS browsers.
+       ,(button-big
+         #:label (C_ "button" "DOWNLOAD LATEST")
+         #:url (guix-url "download/latest/")
+         #:light #true)
+       " "
        ,(button-big
          #:label (C_ "button" "CONTRIBUTE")
         #:url (guix-url "contribute/")

But then, shouldn’t we tell users there are bugs in the standard image and

they better use latest?

Could we maybe wait until such reasons pop up for 1.4.0? Or have a new

standard installer independent of the Guix release?

Mathieu will know better, but I think there were few issues with 1.3.0

(UUID checks in commit f5d9d6ec68f78f5651bd5a698f489ab57bf77d5d) but

latest has better logging. On the other hand, the latest installer had

few new bugs except missing mkfs.ext4.

Toggle quote (7 lines)

> Therefore, I still propose on the webpage https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

> to add this sentence:

> These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

> rolling release model, the [latest development images are

> here](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/).

Why mention rolling release?

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> To me, this patch is orthogonal to release 1.4. Well, if you think it

> is better to apply after the publication of the release, that’s fine. :-)

Indeed timing isn’t very relevant.

Regards,

Florian

zimoun wrote on 6 Dec 2022 18:45

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)

Message-ID:86pmcwifyu.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On Tue, 06 Dec 2022 at 17:33, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> Yes (’s patch was merely about discoverability of the latest installer

> page, that already exists. Also the latest installer page has a warning

> that points users to the standard installer. So we could push

For what it is worth, I think it is better to keep the front page with

only 2 buttons: “Download v1.x“ and “Contribute”.

For discoverability, what I propose instead is to redirect the users

from,

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

If the user does not read the header or is not interested in, they can

process with the current released images. Otherwise, as I propose, a

mention to the latest development, and hop to the other page,

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> But then, shouldn’t we tell users there are bugs in the standard image and

> they better use latest?

By mentioning in the header of:

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

For example, it reads,

Toggle snippet (7 lines)

As of version 1.3.0, the standalone Guix System can be installed on an

i686, x86_64, ARMv7, or AArch64 machine. It uses the Linux-Libre kernel

and the GNU Shepherd init system. Alternately, GNU Guix can be installed

as an additional package manager on top of an installed Linux-based

system.

Therefore, we can add here one sentence or two for mentioning 1. the

latest download webpage and 2. the potential issue.

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> Could we maybe wait until such reasons pop up for 1.4.0? Or have a new

> standard installer independent of the Guix release?

As every program, bugs are around. ;-) I mean, I do not see why we

should wait.

Toggle quote (5 lines)

> Mathieu will know better, but I think there were few issues with 1.3.0

> (UUID checks in commit f5d9d6ec68f78f5651bd5a698f489ab57bf77d5d) but

> latest has better logging. On the other hand, the latest installer had

> few new bugs except missing mkfs.ext4.

From my opinion, the latest installer has less bugs than the v1.3 one. :-)

Toggle quote (9 lines)

>> Therefore, I still propose on the webpage https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/

>> to add this sentence:

>> These images are well-tested released images, and since Guix follows

>> rolling release model, the [latest development images are

>> here](https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/).

> Why mention rolling release?

It is a proposal. :-) I do not know if it is the correct wording.  The
idea is to explain that the installer is continuously improved.  The
model is not stable (release) vs unstable (development) but instead
frozen (release) vs latest.  And mention (point) this latest webpage.

I think this proposal about mentioning the latest download webpage from
the current release webpage improves about discoverability.  And it
keeps the usual entry point with the current release – for sure, it is
well-tested and it should be the recommended way for installing.

Cheers,
simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 7 Dec 2022 15:26

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87r0xbwarc.fsf@pelzflorian.de

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> It is a proposal. :-) I do not know if it is the correct wording. The

> idea is to explain that the installer is continuously improved.

What about the attached patch? With picture.

The download latest page can do the explanation.

(Again I prefer to have a copyright line. Small patches accumulate and

their sum gives copyright, affirming the AGPL3.)

Regards,

Florian

Attachment: 1.jpg

From 9ac14dfebdd9f82c6611843cac63c93c79e0f87a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001

Fixes https://issues.guix.gnu.org/59822.

Suggestions by ( <paren@disroot.org>

and Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>.

* website/apps/download/data.scm (): Mention them.

---

website/apps/download/data.scm | 6 +++++-

1 file changed, 5 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

Toggle diff (24 lines)diff --git a/website/apps/download/data.scm b/website/apps/download/data.scm
index 2e54bb4..5718894 100644
--- a/website/apps/download/data.scm
+++ b/website/apps/download/data.scm
@@ -1,4 +1,5 @@
 ;;; GNU Guix web site
+;;; Copyright © 2022 Florian Pelz <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de>
 ;;; Initially written by sirgazil who waives all
 ;;; copyright interest on this file.
 
@@ -21,7 +22,10 @@
                 (string-append "GNU�Guix System " (latest-guix-version) ""))
     #:description
     `(div
-      ,(G_ `(p "USB/DVD ISO installer of the standalone Guix System.")))
+      ,(G_ `(p "USB/DVD ISO installer of the standalone Guix System.
+You can also get "
+,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(guix-url "download/latest/"))) "continuously improved
+images")) ".")))
     #:image (guix-url "static/base/img/GuixSD-package.png")
     #:base-url (string-append "https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/guix-system-install-"
 			      (latest-guix-version) ".")
-- 
2.38.1

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 8 Dec 2022 10:36

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87v8mmi6ee.fsf@pelzflorian.de

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> writes:

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> What about the attached patch? With picture.

No, my proposed patch is bad.  Users would still be guided to use the CI
image, just with an extra step, in which case we’d better link to CI
directly.  Same thing if the sentence “You can also use the continuously
improved installer image” were part of the page header.

Preferrably replace the standard installer, in case important fixes,
debug features or so get added to the installer.  For example by
branching off v1.4.0 (or whatever is the latest version), cherry picking
the installer fixes, and merging that installer branch back into master
so that one can reconfigure from it (see
https://issues.guix.gnu.org/59780#6).

I would like to close.

Regards,
Florian

zimoun wrote on 8 Dec 2022 11:12

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)

Message-ID:86o7segq6a.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 at 10:36, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (5 lines)

> No, my proposed patch is bad. Users would still be guided to use the CI

> image, just with an extra step, in which case we’d better link to CI

> directly. Same thing if the sentence “You can also use the continuously

> improved installer image” were part of the page header.

[...]

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> I would like to close.

As you want. But I still think that we implicitly know because we are

around is not explicit and can be confusing. The implicit knowledge is:

- released installer/images/etc are the standard, but…

- latest installer/images/etc. have probably less bugs.

I miss why write an sentence in this webpage

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/ mentioning this webpage

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/ would be detrimental.

Note that from the front page https://guix.gnu.org/, top right,

Download mentions Latest. From this latest webpage, there is a link to

the Standard webpage. Why would the converse be an issue?

Well, I think we have enough discussed. :-) I mean, if you prefer to

close and keep the status quo, all is fine with me. :-)

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 8 Dec 2022 12:50

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87y1riw1ur.fsf@pelzflorian.de

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> - released installer/images/etc are the standard, but…

> - latest installer/images/etc. have probably less bugs.

Latest sometimes has relevant bugs like mkfs.ext4 missing; it cannot be

the solution. When standard installer images have more bugs than

latest, there should be a new standard image.

Closing.

Regards,

Florian

Closed

(

( wrote on 8 Dec 2022 16:49

Recipients:(address . 59822-done@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:COWJZH18XU4S.1R9UXBN5MFH6O@guix-framework

On Thu Dec 8, 2022 at 11:50 AM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> Closing.

On Mon Dec 5, 2022 at 04:51 PM GMT, ( wrote:

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> Yes, I thought of this possibility. How about "Download nightly" instead?

-- (

Closed

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 8 Dec 2022 17:44

Recipients:(name . ()(address . paren@disroot.org)

Message-ID:87y1rhzvxz.fsf@pelzflorian.de

"(" <paren@disroot.org> writes:

Toggle quote (9 lines)

> On Mon Dec 5, 2022 at 8:00 AM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

>> With prominent links to 1.3.0 and to the latest version, users might

>> think, of course they want latest. The 1.3.0 version got QA testing and

>> is more likely to not get broken, even though latest might work on newer

>> hardware.

> Yes, I thought of this possibility. How about "Download nightly" instead?

> -- (

Reopen. Dust hasn’t set yet on the issue.

Sorry I have read but not responded directly. In my view, the word

nightly would be less understandable than latest, for better or worse.

But recommending CI images still collides a good user experience.

CI images are for developers and testers. The standard installer did

not get bug fixes in the 1.3.0 period, but it can and should. It is

possible to put up a new installer without a new Guix release.

Regards,

Florian

(

( wrote on 8 Dec 2022 17:46

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)

Message-ID:COWL7556CQM3.3VJ8Z9IEZYU39@guix-framework

On Thu Dec 8, 2022 at 4:44 PM GMT, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> CI images are for developers and testers. The standard installer did

> not get bug fixes in the 1.3.0 period, but it can and should. It is

> possible to put up a new installer without a new Guix release.

Oh, that's a fair point.

-- (

zimoun wrote on 8 Dec 2022 19:10

Recipients:(address . 59822@debbugs.gnu.org)

Message-ID:86y1rhg412.fsf@gmail.com

Hi Florian, all,

On Thu, 08 Dec 2022 at 17:44, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> CI images are for developers and testers. The standard installer did

> not get bug fixes in the 1.3.0 period, but it can and should. It is

> possible to put up a new installer without a new Guix release.

I do not want to bother more but this paragraph suggests an other

direction. :-)

The front page https://guix.gnu.org/ contains the explicit version

number with the button «Download v1.3.0». Why not, just remove this

version label and just have the button «Download»?

This button «Download» leads to «https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/».

Here, we could do the same as we do for the package guix, for instance

use the version label 1.3.0-8.abc123 for some images.

However, it means that we need to update https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/

each time the recommended standard installer or other receives important

fixes. It does not happen that much often. :-)

Well, I mean being able to update independently some images of «GNU Guix

binary» and «GNU Guix System» without going to the big dance of a

complete release.

Obviously, we could have more frequent releases; which would fix most of

the issue. :-) But, we do not have. Somehow being able to update the

standard downloadable installer without creating a new release appears

to me a good solution.

In addition to Ludo, who has the power to upload (and sign) the images

to https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/?

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 8 Dec 2022 20:44

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87bkodk7e5.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hello,

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> Well, I mean being able to update independently some images of «GNU Guix

> binary» and «GNU Guix System» without going to the big dance of a

> complete release.

Why update the binary? guix pull will work. The only important changes

are to the installer program and its dependencies (cryptsetup, parted,

etc).

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> In addition to Ludo, who has the power to upload (and sign) the images

> to <https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/>?

Admittedly I do not know the process of uploading to gnu.org.  My
thought was that cherrypicking installer fixes back to, say, 1.4.0 is
easy.  Manual install would work like the manual says.  The initial
install would be more polished.

Maybe I’m wrong though and cherrypicking fixes isn’t worth it compared
to the CI image, and testing the installer really is about getting bugs
squashed and not so much about polish.

Regards,
Florian

Ludovic Courtès wrote on 21 Dec 2022 14:40

Re: bug#59822: [PATCH guix-artwork] website: base: home: Add 'DOWNLOAD LATEST' button.

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87r0ws50yl.fsf_-_@gnu.org

Hi,

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> The front page https://guix.gnu.org/ contains the explicit version

> number with the button «Download v1.3.0». Why not, just remove this

> version label and just have the button «Download»?

Because people would be downloading the snapshot of the day, for which

we haven’t done as much testing as during a regular release process.

The release process is not just ceremonial; over the last couple of

months, we’ve put a lot of effort actually fixing things, in particular

in the installer. Releases make sense IMO.

[...]

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> In addition to Ludo, who has the power to upload (and sign) the images

> to <https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/guix/>?

The process to be authorized to upload files to ftp.gnu.org and

alpha.gnu.org is described in the GNU Maintainers Guide (info

"(maintain) Automated FTP Uploads"). Maintainers can ask GNU sysadmins

to add specific people to the list of authorized uploaders.

Currently, I believe Ricardo, Maxim, Mathieu, and myself are authorized.

We’ll make sure the next release team is authorized too!

Ludo’.

zimoun wrote on 30 Dec 2022 13:21

Re: [bug#59822] [PATCH guix-artwork] website: base: home: Add 'DOWNLOAD LATEST' button.

Recipients:(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)

Message-ID:87pmc1kroh.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 14:40, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:

Toggle quote (9 lines)

> zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:

>> The front page <https://guix.gnu.org/> contains the explicit version

>> number with the button «Download v1.3.0». Why not, just remove this

>> version label and just have the button «Download»?

> Because people would be downloading the snapshot of the day, for which

> we haven’t done as much testing as during a regular release process.

I do not see why just the button «Download» instead of the button

«Download v1.4.0» would lead to people downloading something else than

the link, i.e., the webpage named https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/.

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> The release process is not just ceremonial; over the last couple of

> months, we’ve put a lot of effort actually fixing things, in particular

> in the installer. Releases make sense IMO.

Yes, for sure! Release makes sense. I do not think someone is

advocating for removing the release itself. :-)

From my understanding, the patch is about discoverability of the latest

Download webpage; this one: https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/latest/.

I am still missing why from the Standard download webpage

https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/, the mention to the Latest download

webpage would be detrimental or confusing.

Toggle diff (27 lines)diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
index 7b72da8..5bbbd70 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
@@ -105,7 +105,7 @@ languages (EDSLs) to "
        (@ (class "action-box centered-text"))
        ,(button-big
          #:label (apply string-append
-                        (C_ "button" `("DOWNLOAD v" ,(latest-guix-version) "")))
+                        (C_ "button" '("DOWNLOAD")))
 	 #:url (guix-url "download/")
 	 #:light #true)
        " " ; A space for readability in non-CSS browsers.
diff --git a/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm b/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
index bcf3cd2..9924917 100644
--- a/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
+++ b/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
@@ -65,7 +65,8 @@ Package manager") #\|)
           ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(gnu-url "software/shepherd"))) "GNU Shepherd"))
           " init system. Alternately, GNU�Guix
           can be installed as an additional package manager on top of an
-          installed Linux-based system."))
+          installed Linux-based system.  The latest development snapshots are available"
+          ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(guix-url "download-latest/"))) "here."))))
 
       (div
        (@ (class "centered-text"))

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 31 Dec 2022 16:43

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87k0278top.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hi all.

Making latest more discoverable would be unlikely to make it used

exactly by the select few in need of its features.

Probably we better remove latest from the top menu?

I wouldn’t want newcomers to go for latest because hey, it’s displayed

prominently and newer. The installation routine for the latest

installer image also may break. Or after installation, some software is

broken. Which would mean the initial install is broken, and no

roll-back is available.

In the past, the Guix System latest install image also got better

debugging support, but now a new release with debug features is there,

this will not be relevant again.

Regards,

Florian

Ludovic Courtès wrote on 6 Jan 2023 23:53

Recipients:(name . zimoun)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87cz7rxojv.fsf@gnu.org

Hello!

zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:

Toggle quote (14 lines)> On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 at 14:40, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
>> zimoun <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> skribis:
>>
>>> The front page <https://guix.gnu.org/> contains the explicit version
>>> number with the button «Download v1.3.0».  Why not, just remove this
>>> version label and just have the button «Download»?
>>
>> Because people would be downloading the snapshot of the day, for which
>> we haven’t done as much testing as during a regular release process.
>
> I do not see why just the button «Download» instead of the button
> «Download v1.4.0» would lead to people downloading something else than
> the link, i.e., the webpage named <https://guix.gnu.org/en/download/>.

Oh sorry, I had totally misunderstood. :-)

No strong opinion about whether or not to keep “v1.4.0” on the button.

It nobody objects, we can apply those patches.

"pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> skribis:

Toggle quote (11 lines)> Making latest more discoverable would be unlikely to make it used
> exactly by the select few in need of its features.
>
> Probably we better remove latest from the top menu?
>
> I wouldn’t want newcomers to go for latest because hey, it’s displayed
> prominently and newer.  The installation routine for the latest
> installer image also may break.  Or after installation, some software is
> broken.  Which would mean the initial install is broken, and no
> roll-back is available.

Yes, I agree. But then, where would you put the link to /latest?

Or maybe we can keep it in the menu but add a prominent warning on the

page stating that these are snapshots that haven’t seen as much QA?

Ludo’.

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 7 Jan 2023 08:29

Recipients:(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)

Message-ID:87sfgmby5s.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> No strong opinion about whether or not to keep “v1.4.0” on the button.

> It nobody objects, we can apply those patches.

Yes. Sorry for ignoring this side issue.

I like knowing the version, but the version is everywhere on the

download page. Renaming the button gives us more options what to put on

the download page. And now the front page translations have to be

adapted anyway because the word advanced is rightfully gone now.

Pushed as a51b8d4cc5a2a1d268edecb2417e728eae8dd2b7, I hope it is OK.

Toggle quote (2 lines)

> But then, where would you put the link to /latest?

We could remove the link to latest, but keep the /latest page online

without linking to it, because people have hyperlinks pointing there.

And also move the Hurd and Pinebook Pro image to the regular downloads.

Even though for these, we might want to make releases instead of CI

images? I guess not; also I cannot test Pinebook Pro. I don’t know.

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> Or maybe we can keep it in the menu but add a prominent warning on the

> page stating that these are snapshots that haven’t seen as much QA?

The warning is already there and I think it is prominent.

Regards,

Florian

Simon Tournier wrote on 9 Jan 2023 11:13

Recipients:

Message-ID:87sfgkyq1a.fsf@gmail.com

Hi,

On sam., 07 janv. 2023 at 08:29, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> We could remove the link to latest, but keep the /latest page online

> without linking to it, because people have hyperlinks pointing there.

From my point of view, a webpage without internal links pointing to it

is a dead and hidden webpage.

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> And also move the Hurd and Pinebook Pro image to the regular downloads.

> Even though for these, we might want to make releases instead of CI

> images? I guess not; also I cannot test Pinebook Pro. I don’t know.

From my point of view, it make clearer to have two separated webpages:

one for the well-tested and somehow released and frozen images; another

one for development wild images built by CI.

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 9 Jan 2023 20:35

Recipients:(name . Simon Tournier)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87zgarzejo.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com> writes:

Toggle quote (3 lines)

> From my point of view, a webpage without internal links pointing to it

> is a dead and hidden webpage.

Yes without internal links really is not nice, but despite all that,
wouldn’t newcomers feel confused if we present them a choice?  Wouldn’t
newcomers who download a non-working latest put the blame on GNU Guix?

Regards,
Florian

Simon Tournier wrote on 11 Jan 2023 17:11

Recipients:(name . pelzflorian (Florian Pelz))(address . pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de)

Message-ID:86o7r53vbi.fsf@gmail.com

Hi Florianm

On Mon, 09 Jan 2023 at 20:35, "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@pelzflorian.de> wrote:

Toggle quote (4 lines)

> Yes without internal links really is not nice, but despite all that,

> wouldn’t newcomers feel confused if we present them a choice? Wouldn’t

> newcomers who download a non-working latest put the blame on GNU Guix?

I speak for myself when using a random project elsewhere. Usually, I do

not feel confused if it is really clear what is the recommended product

and what is the experimental one; and what I can expect from each

product.

And when this distinction is clear, I do not blame this very project if

the experimental is not working as expected. Somehow, I consider that I

am able to make my own choices. :-)

To me, the situation is already clear with Guix. Maybe we could improve

the wording although I find it clear. ;-)

The recommendation is the release. From the front webpage, it is where

the newcomer is redirected when clicking on the large Download button.

Moreover, the top menu Download lists Standard or Latest. The Standard

redirects to the release. And the Latest redirects to a webpage using

the term “development snapshots”, which is pretty clear, IMHO.

My suggestion was about discoverability.

As currently, keep very clear that the release download webpage

(standard) is the recommendation. From this webpage, I am suggesting to

add a mention to the experimental (development snapshots) webpage. For

instance, such download-latest contains Hurd or Pinebook images.

Well, WDYT about this patch?

Toggle diff (15 lines)diff --git a/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm b/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
index bcf3cd2..34d1d5f 100644
--- a/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
+++ b/website/apps/download/templates/download.scm
@@ -65,7 +65,9 @@ Package manager") #\|)
           ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(gnu-url "software/shepherd"))) "GNU Shepherd"))
           " init system. Alternately, GNU�Guix
           can be installed as an additional package manager on top of an
-          installed Linux-based system."))
+          installed Linux-based system.  For other images including GNU Hurd,
+please consider the"
+          ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(guix-url "download-latest/"))) "experimental snapshots."))))
 
       (div
        (@ (class "centered-text"))

Cheers,

simon

pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote on 12 Jan 2023 18:56

Recipients:(name . Simon Tournier)(address . zimon.toutoune@gmail.com)

Message-ID:87bkn3skks.fsf@pelzflorian.de

Hi Simon,

Our vision differs in

1) the downloads page mentioning latest and

2) the top menu mentioning latest.

About 1), although I agree adding your text to the downloads page is an

improvement for discoverability, I don’t like that your patch gives

people the impression they get any advantage from experimental builds.

*A disagreement.*

About 2), the top menu.

Consider a user who reads little but wants to try Guix. And that user

does not read the main part of the homepage but follows the top menu.

Such people exist, I guess, and are important. I claim that

a) the distinction between standard and latest falsely suggests that

latest is more current, more up-to-date, more appealing.

*We are in disagreement about if the distinction is clear.*

b) And I claim that in contrast to the past situation when the

distinction was necessary, now that we have 1.4.0 and its more

debuggable installer image, there will be no purpose in advertising

latest anymore, that is, no advertisement of ci.guix.gnu.org images

is needed.

*This b) is the same disagreement as in 1).*

IMHO we should hide the latest category in the top menu and make two new

categories.

One Hurd category could cater to users with hardware that can run Hurd,

who like Hurd’s features and who don’t like that Linux-libre is

monolithic and has bad GPLv2 licensing. But as of now, unlike Debian,

Guix’s Hurd only runs on QEMU?

One ARM category could offer, well, I don’t exactly know, is the

Pinebook Pro image an upgradeable Guix System or a transient image?

These offerings are not polished.

I will not take the time to think

about a patch removing latest now though.

Regards,

Florian

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