fully functional desktop installation

OpenSubmitted by Quiliro.
Details
9 participants
  • Chris Marusich
  • Danny Milosavljevic
  • Oleg Pykhalov
  • Konrad Hinsen
  • Ludovic Courtès
  • Mathieu Lirzin
  • myglc2
  • Quiliro
  • Ricardo Wurmus
Owner
unassigned
Severity
normal
Q
Q
Quiliro wrote on 29 Dec 2016 23:10
(address . bug-guix@gnu.org)
20161229171045.263747a9@riseup.net
It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains allnecessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation forthe end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to writeand read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. Iknow the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and thatafter thatguix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail(and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to makean installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary tohave the same configuration or the same packages. But it would beuseful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel.
Any ideas of how to do this?-- Saludos,Quiliro
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 2 Jan 2017 22:11
(name . Quiliro)(address . quiliro@riseup.net)(address . 25296@debbugs.gnu.org)
87bmvpb21m.fsf@gnu.org
Hello!
Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:
Toggle quote (12 lines)> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that> after that> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel.
The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, whichprovides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things.
Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, likethe rest of GNOME.
I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by defaultthough, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant withwhat GNOME provides, I think.)
WDYT?
Thanks for your feedback!
Ludo’.
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 8 Jan 2017 11:16
(name . Quiliro)(address . quiliro@riseup.net)(address . 25296@debbugs.gnu.org)
87shotx3eq.fsf@gnu.org
Hi Quiliro!
Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:
Toggle quote (3 lines)> On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 22:11:01 +0100> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote:
[...]
Toggle quote (6 lines)>> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which>> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things.>> I don't find the email client.> The web browser will not reproduce videos.
This is a bug that needs to be treated separately. Clearly Nautilusshould be able to play videos.
Toggle quote (2 lines)> I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.)
There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME.
Toggle quote (9 lines)> What you say makes sense. But what users that cannot learn to install> need to work on their own matters is very important in order for them to> be able to advocate the free system. Perhaps we do not want to promote> the use of Flash or Microsoft Office formats. These issues are> critical. But they are not against the FSDGs. And the user must notice> we are able to offer those capabilities. We must always insist in> suggesting to use the libre alternatives. In this case, we should not> avoid including the ability to read those formats.
I agree, but again, I think GNOME provides everything for these tasks.Also, at this point, the target audience of GuixSD is not “users thatcannot learn to install”—if someone managed to install GuixSD, surelythey’ll find out how to install LibreOffice.
Toggle quote (3 lines)> I have also had problems with Mimetypes. Many files will not open> because the Gnome will not identify which program is appropriate.
Sounds like a bug. Could you report all the details tobug-guix@gnu.org: how to reproduce, what you expected, and what you got?
Thank you!
Ludo’.
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Ricardo Wurmus wrote on 9 Jan 2017 12:11
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87eg0ccwtx.fsf@elephly.net
Toggle quote (4 lines)>> I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.)>> There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME.
The GNOME way is to use Empathy, which depends on the Telepathyframework:
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Empathy
-- Ricardo
GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAChttp://elephly.net
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Mathieu Lirzin wrote on 14 Jan 2018 14:34
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87a7xgwom7.fsf@gnu.org
ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
Toggle quote (27 lines)> Hello!>> Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:>>> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all>> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for>> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write>> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I>> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that>> after that>> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail>> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make>> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to>> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be>> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel.>> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things.>> Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the> ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like> the rest of GNOME.>> I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default> though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with> what GNOME provides, I think.)
I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not toLibreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB bymainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOMEdesktop.
-- Mathieu LirzinGPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 14 Jan 2018 22:53
(name . Mathieu Lirzin)(address . mthl@gnu.org)
87shb8jedn.fsf@gnu.org
Hi,
Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis:
Toggle quote (34 lines)> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:>>> Hello!>>>> Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:>>>>> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all>>> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for>>> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write>>> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I>>> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that>>> after that>>> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail>>> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make>>> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to>>> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be>>> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel.>>>> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which>> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things.>>>> Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the>> ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like>> the rest of GNOME.>>>> I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default>> though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with>> what GNOME provides, I think.)>> I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not to> Libreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB by> mainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOME> desktop.
I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop exampleinclude a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice& co.”?
This is something that the ncurses interface should make morediscoverable.
Thanks,Ludo’.
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Mathieu Lirzin wrote on 15 Jan 2018 14:26
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87lggzdzh9.fsf@gnu.org
Hello,
ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
Toggle quote (38 lines)> Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis:>>> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:>>>>> Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:>>>>>>> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all>>>> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for>>>> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write>>>> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I>>>> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that>>>> after that>>>> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail>>>> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make>>>> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to>>>> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be>>>> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel.>>>>>> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which>>> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things.>>>>>> Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the>>> ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like>>> the rest of GNOME.>>>>>> I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default>>> though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with>>> what GNOME provides, I think.)>>>> I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not to>> Libreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB by>> mainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOME>> desktop.>> I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop example> include a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice> & co.”?
IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case.Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop withdefault applications for common usages.
This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package(or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen byGuix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to havea working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unusedpackages installed.
Toggle quote (3 lines)> This is something that the ncurses interface should make more> discoverable.
That could be a solution. However even if the current target audienceof Guix(SD) are tinkerer who may like options, I don't think thisapproach scales well to a broader audience.
Thanks.
-- Mathieu LirzinGPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
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myglc2 wrote on 15 Jan 2018 14:49
(name . Mathieu Lirzin)(address . mthl@gnu.org)
86inc3mdtl.fsf@gmail.com
On 01/15/2018 at 14:26 Mathieu Lirzin writes:[...]
Toggle quote (4 lines)> IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case.> Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with> default applications for common usages.
+1
Benefit: Helps "less-hackerly" users get started.
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 16 Jan 2018 11:31
(name . Mathieu Lirzin)(address . mthl@gnu.org)
87vag2857m.fsf@gnu.org
Hi,
Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis:
Toggle quote (11 lines)> IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case.> Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with> default applications for common usages.>> This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with> ‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package> (or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen by> Guix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to have> a working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unused> packages installed.
Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience(tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install themwith “guix package -i”?
Admittedly this is a very subjective issue.
Ludo’.
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Danny Milosavljevic wrote on 16 Jan 2018 12:09
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
20180116120929.28686761@scratchpost.org
Hi,
Toggle quote (4 lines)> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them> with “guix package -i”?
I think one of the nice features of Guix is that the user can install packages on their own. Other distributions leave the decision of which packages to install up to the administrator (a separate person in companies). I work in a very large company where often some simple stuff is missing on servers and admins will not install it for fear of fucking up some unrelated already-installed package (understandable since all the dependencies are dynamic in Solaris and applications will just pick up whatever is lying around in the global namespace).
Long story short, I think it's a good thing that the user has his own profile which isn't magically updated and doesn't magically pick up things not in the user profile - except when it's already in the store bitwise-identical. That way, if he needs some application for work it will not randomly break and he can be sure that it will do what it did yesterday. If he wants to update, he updates. Otherwise not. His choice.
So long story short, I myself prefer having no applications in the system profile and the user installing all (business-relevant) applications themselves. It gives control to the user.
(my "packages" field is: (packages (cons* nss-certs ;for HTTPS access font-adobe100dpi font-adobe75dpi font-bitstream-vera font-dejavu font-gnu-freefont-ttf font-gnu-unifont font-liberation font-ubuntu adwaita-icon-theme %base-packages)) ; xterm is there by default.
And the ones that are still in there bother me :))
As for libreoffice and other large packages, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but huge packages waste disk space and provide an attack surface for exploits - and maybe no regular user uses it.
That said, I've installed it :P
I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project).
Users who like a minimal system can always use lightweight-desktop.tmpl or even bare-bones.tmpl.
And I think it's important to mention the approximate space requirements for desktop.tmpl in the manual (for partitioning).
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Konrad Hinsen wrote on 16 Jan 2018 12:34
(address . 25296@debbugs.gnu.org)
a0b0cc59-5228-9409-9cc3-a1a467a9033d@fastmail.net
Hi,
Toggle quote (6 lines)> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them> with “guix package -i”?> > Admittedly this is a very subjective issue.
How about organizing Guix in a layered way, with the core distribution containing narrow-purpose packages (mostly one piece of software), and another layer (in a distinct module, perhaps with a distinct naming convention) containing collections of software that works well together or is useful for a specific application domain? I see other use cases than just desktop stuff.
The main rationale for distinct layers is that assembling software at different levels requires different competences and different ways of documenting the assemblies. In the long run, I'd expect different people to be in charge of each layer.
Konrad.
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 16 Jan 2018 14:57
(name . Konrad Hinsen)(address . konrad.hinsen@fastmail.net)
87inc17vpm.fsf@gnu.org
Hi Konrad,
Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@fastmail.net> skribis:
Toggle quote (13 lines)>> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience>> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them>> with “guix package -i”?>>>> Admittedly this is a very subjective issue.>> How about organizing Guix in a layered way, with the core distribution> containing narrow-purpose packages (mostly one piece of software), and> another layer (in a distinct module, perhaps with a distinct naming> convention) containing collections of software that works well> together or is useful for a specific application domain? I see other> use cases than just desktop stuff.
In GuixSD, that’s more or less what happens with ‘gnome-service-type’and ‘xfce-service-type’, for example. (I’m not sure how that could workat the Guix level, nor whether this is necessary.)
Ludo’.
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 16 Jan 2018 14:59
(name . Danny Milosavljevic)(address . dannym@scratchpost.org)
87bmht7vmc.fsf@gnu.org
Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis:
Toggle quote (4 lines)>> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience>> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them>> with “guix package -i”?
[...]
Toggle quote (2 lines)> Long story short, I think it's a good thing that the user has his own profile which isn't magically updated and doesn't magically pick up things not in the user profile - except when it's already in the store bitwise-identical. That way, if he needs some application for work it will not randomly break and he can be sure that it will do what it did yesterday. If he wants to update, he updates. Otherwise not. His choice.
Agreed, though in this case (GNOME), we’re pretty much talking aboutsingle-user machines.
Toggle quote (2 lines)> I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project).
OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download timesand disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but thiswon’t happen overnight.)
Ludo’.
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Mathieu Lirzin wrote on 16 Jan 2018 16:40
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87wp0hlsl4.fsf@gnu.org
Hi,
ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
Toggle quote (17 lines)> Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis:>>> IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case.>> Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with>> default applications for common usages.>>>> This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with>> ‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package>> (or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen by>> Guix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to have>> a working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unused>> packages installed.>> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them> with “guix package -i”?
Definitely not, it is even better for tinkerers to not have those“bloated” bundles/meta-packages full of defaults they don't like. :-)
-- Mathieu LirzinGPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37
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Chris Marusich wrote on 17 Jan 2018 08:09
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87r2qpj70x.fsf@gmail.com
ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
Toggle quote (8 lines)> Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis:>>> I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project).>> OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download times> and disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but this> won’t happen overnight.)
While I think it's fine to include this in the example desktopconfiguration file, I don't see why we couldn't have a few exampleconfiguration files for various use cases. One of those use cases couldmimic what other distros normally include, like LibreOffice etc, and oneof those could be a more minimal desktop environment. Does it add amaintenance burden to have multiple example desktop configuration files?
-- Chris
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Ludovic Courtès wrote on 17 Jan 2018 09:48
(name . Chris Marusich)(address . cmmarusich@gmail.com)
874lnk98he.fsf@gnu.org
Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:
Toggle quote (17 lines)> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:>>> Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis:>>>>> I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project).>>>> OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download times>> and disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but this>> won’t happen overnight.)>> While I think it's fine to include this in the example desktop> configuration file, I don't see why we couldn't have a few example> configuration files for various use cases. One of those use cases could> mimic what other distros normally include, like LibreOffice etc, and one> of those could be a more minimal desktop environment. Does it add a> maintenance burden to have multiple example desktop configuration files?
Not much, though we’d have to make sure they still work.
The only difference in this case would be the ‘packages’ field, which, Iwas hoping, didn’t warrant a separate example.
Ludo’.
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Oleg Pykhalov wrote on 17 Jan 2018 10:56
(name . Ludovic Courtès)(address . ludo@gnu.org)
87vag0u7uc.fsf@gmail.com
Hello,
ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
[...]
Toggle quote (4 lines)> I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop example> include a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice> & co.”?
Agree. Maybe we could provide a hint like:
gnu/system/examples/desktop.tmpl
(packages (cons* nss-certs ;for HTTPS access gvfs ;for user mounts
;; Following packages recommended to be installed ;; per-user with `guix package -i PACKAGE'. ;; Otherwise uncomment them to install globally. ;; ;; icecat ;GNU version of the Firefox browser ;; libreoffice ;office suite
;; Basic administrator tasks %base-packages))
Toggle quote (3 lines)> This is something that the ncurses interface should make more> discoverable.
When I saw a lightweight-desktop template for the first time, there wasa good ad about ratpoison window manager which I didn't know before.This is a really good way to promote reasonable software. :-)
Oleg.
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