From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 04 06:48:14 2021 Received: (at 50960) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Oct 2021 10:48:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXLW1-0005Yi-Kr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 06:48:13 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f41.google.com ([209.85.128.41]:50897) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXLVy-0005YO-2J for 50960@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 06:48:12 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f41.google.com with SMTP id j27so13122285wms.0 for <50960@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 03:48:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hysui7VZqRP9HhRgp1lL30ZJt/UKFyBuxIj+rCi6Zfc=; b=fkfYjCt6xXj/m3/NmyCxw10dkseIR6/JWbHzThghK/zP5G/hilIsPusZl1FUhv3mTo U5/OlyKtJXcDxr7c2HMVBjXSoFW2s8V0EvC7ia9a1h+hWkUDPuBL5MCMjpqLyw9ZF6O+ MIVYfGM8229a6/tyYA+pIFkOW0Ac1Akkd0JA1amVNgQXn1PtlFPFsaetYbvaDcUjygyM DIPSTn+LVOjsBUaRSVwuxiad/v0Fp0rGQvqd4A7diFGV66rbCxglVDQ6kpUEEHE14I8N LUOQZh6iXGJ10Q//RIKfLChcSsCTAcUfwMyh6U7oeVXntjUBxd3HJzPlb7RWEuasih8J DetQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hysui7VZqRP9HhRgp1lL30ZJt/UKFyBuxIj+rCi6Zfc=; b=mLCtZ6o6O74hQvNTHA4SqR2SfQRzzJDIABVx6K0m57U0DR6ZwuOmvrEg9aE4ca+Pc6 hqMvyWVaSOLpXjb/oScOr+dF6uG8Y3Dtqc+aXCKl5yPqxt0Lpps9Wq4VRnVWwrNGRcSw 5myRbwiXrQ+98tpTxy4NmHq2EDxX5CeYAxkkfI5LRMo+bHDK6yEPju7454oH+ZAAhjBE mix65AshrsYO2le1Xhl5aDk84wYMJ21WGKb0sMp05EdNokez2thIyopyzF1RrZzHZX+P /QwgFHZHCZppZp0S53JAe5nNCSRFwsGVM7MeTZC+z7DA/c1s2Ktl6Xm4kQtn2/pEDyxQ mmTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DwVTp30chgD5+NuJgdPMf8wxT8J7OQra2znBlbu+n0aEYQbHI TbQamzkXbuZGBIdH5JePxXPbQKYiJnHe+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTrtz9WdDN00SDxShtPwTKVBO5wqgT2UV+N9ZkMb7jSUK9F/LoH8hwxOvAbX8nXsX9YkkA+g== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f405:: with SMTP id z5mr17850740wma.72.1633344483870; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 03:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lili ([2a01:e0a:59b:9120:65d2:2476:f637:db1e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k22sm14337715wrd.59.2021.10.04.03.48.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 04 Oct 2021 03:48:03 -0700 (PDT) From: zimoun To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: [bug#50960] [PATCH 00/10] Add 'guix shell' to subsume 'guix environment' In-Reply-To: <87r1d1qj3v.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20211002102116.27726-1-ludo@gnu.org> <868rz9ffck.fsf@gmail.com> <87r1d1qj3v.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 12:40:01 +0200 Message-ID: <86a6jpdqf2.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 50960 Cc: 50960@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, On Mon, 04 Oct 2021 at 10:39, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > It should be clear from the code that I generally prefer explicit over > implicit :-), but I think Dave has a point when talking about > conventions for this kind of developer tool. Well, if you speak about this thread [1], the point is others are doing so and it is an usability improvement. :-) I am fine since somehow it is already the case with =E2=80=99make=E2=80=99 = or all the config files or many of us seem to simplify their workflow using direnv or etc. so yes it is probably handy to have conventions and automatic load by default. :-) 1: >>> As for deprecation, I think there=E2=80=99s no rush. I imagine there c= ould be >>> several phases, like: initially we only mention deprecation in the manu= al, >>> later on =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 starts emitting a warning, = and later (I guess >>> at least two years later, probably more) we ask ourselves whether to >>> remove =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99. At this point keeping it do= esn=E2=80=99t cost us much. >> >> Concretely, I propose this plan: >> >> - v1.4: mention deprecation in the manual and remove from =E2=80=9Cguix= help=E2=80=9D >> - v1.5: emit a warning >> - v1.6: remove the command > > Could be like this. I guess we could also slow down the plan if we > observe that =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 sticks around longer than= we thought. Bah, let reconsider this when preparing v1.6. ;-) At the current release rate, probably 2024. :-) From my point of view, we should clearly document at v1.4 that this command will be removed soon or later. >> Well, I do not see why the removal should be an issue, because there is >> =E2=80=9Cguix time-machine=E2=80=9D. To me, the real issue is to let pe= ople knowing >> such change. > > As discussed in , removal is an > issue because of existing scripts but also because of learning material > around: MOOCs, articles, tutorials, etc. These won=E2=80=99t be updated > overnight, and we owe our users stability. For sure, I agree =C2=ABwe owe our users stability=C2=BB. That=E2=80=99s I= translate into =C2=ABthe real issue is to let people knowing such change=C2=BB. :-) As I am trying to explain, this scenario, guix environment =E2=80=A6 wait several months or years =E2=80=A6 guix pull guix environment will break because . Therefore, one will have to fix these very same scripts. Even us, we are not able to maintain working scripts for different points in time. The example using =E2=80=9Cguix environment= =E2=80=9D is broken for the manual released at v1.3, as pointed here [2]. However, =E2=80=9Cguix environment=E2=80=9D will still work using =E2=80=9C= guix time-machine=E2=80=9D. Nothing is really broken, IMHO. About learning materials, we could remove the command =E2=80=9Cguix environ= ment=E2=80=9D but keep a section in the manual explaining how to switch to the new =E2=80=9Cguix shell=E2=80=9D. Well, let discuss all that when preparing v1.5 or v1.6. Something as one or two years from now. ;-) Which i 2: Cheers, simon