From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 28 03:06:15 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 08:06:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaEoZ-00027R-Gd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 03:06:15 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:60187) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaEoS-000278-SQ for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 03:06:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1574928359; bh=8dMkEMg4V1E3+CkrpG1LUCyscTb/pSm3YDXJnWyWKP8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=pFnIdmqO1s2uLKf4FvsfJFk2GN2i12wetxwjOh2jkaLqv8l9DuMlUY2AZsl/87MB1 iuVQ2NuzBKiYA8CkzFeq8dDwDz9ZxtzSf+FQoRuD6TJzhfElezo5yDOozbe1dS/Ig1 irw2R6Y5dth9T5Lb6zy/dzllfmmFtlBNAB3MUT5s= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.28.233]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M8Qtq-1heXYa3k4w-00w0lc; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:05:59 +0100 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:05:51 +0100 Message-ID: <87eexs2zog.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:UVhFGsxdHLe5ix3uPHobwYL35Zm2P/wid6SORNzu5VyQp0WhNQ3 vSMGYMVKIEhc2gbqV3NhXV7gLSK1WvLSc0ui4w1XP71DuwXAvnQ+ePKAYgllFxeJV+e2vCH Pi+nFpzS/QIWARmE+V8meNDwSzfOjoN1APpBHBVD57+Pu44RlBUnjeLV5QGazydheoWgRUI FcHZfbln/sXz9k0r7NaUA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dkCKttzoJDg=:gJY5sj4fthO1wMmNV/RmgE tvG2pmoddbbqrKkymNC+6+8HEYrkTXURvwuGDbZVfdZivEw42SgwOcXVaEe211c6g7wjJx+7V 0LqB1X66kD4201iIf0rtmYs1z/wYxsDfseM5aiwRnSth9ygIfKajAPsoDv+ReGEux2WQ4k19G OHSkQjIST25/t/cRUoXEHTPBzI35VLcgiom3unRALuDnJSUAnr/YWqlxazoRTGtJri9VbRe7M zd5BudpRTWeXaWubk7g/0AsWWWcP6SEpmATBcS2CL3Cq+dMkkejdBM1dCE9QQC8QPLta7LHgu NSTYMjEcZ+pwWd9XAiBlBY261pYN9pywtr516Kl+VsWi7+2DXE/1w66zDT+YWt3ZP5yHNSzU1 Rm55v0xAxhwOtL56hDLXYPCBz3TCb53k1Rg+sJzu39Nsy2Z8BfdU1xElcXotXkaAJXz9LS7un 6fqaNJItKfng99hOxzrJsAhrOyGkDZ+Mxs+xZTyvKl7tTWgLPfFpvoJTAoHvMYfAR97QeavYN 18r8IM+UC89T++TpQN0noVIlCQtQ0GS+vuaqlxjie/8rK/2lsfKjx4MapI7cWxV1iP9/z77Ms ro8yaMTf16Xumr70oRFxxbKioph38cnjHRHhxfa4PpHvJURIlGMz7NbRx0hcfFIFpuvk0myDd tR39pM2S2tCYx5h/APKq3+jnvc1owl8MaeZYw0HCIxwyLraYwn1GHjYrF8FS63Z9kHUQPsoIK spS18gpiuA0sCUv1gANS4EXk/SgyDMUX4E1T7DX7svLJR0eNZ99Pc5VoUbc+IaJdRPLEhfQIH 3qJKbXl/tZRRTmFg9OLFWgIvMRps+Bw3iFUICcbkl8ThbpJilQOWiMBhe8AH0jRePlnCdzXh3 vUE66+WQ6id9k2QbtBHgx5jWxq1pGKPYnC1RtReSreNGvzujCER7auWoR4Os+CKJiyQngraO+ 4l6RFSl4k4A6IwVc/uKscTr/4hXhDn89T9XF6DPn1q5GYIrlIU1dn7bQCj9a/kh0Wv560NdNG o1M3WvYTYOIRvEmSFi4oJjLHir2RRiE4d6NIzMlOFPmejQM+Kyo+CuTSY/hjcwbFtLIBDZwLI omk7mjaU7A2Nf8Ffq47gz0nNwbjbzupPFaU3sKjpE00ck2Q8K73VwH9XeB58ztwSesX9gfdvx GcAZGEfU6eAOaA6XFzqb8vJr30ZiMnFHRxgJ7IKDpG+7xp/t+xyJGf7hCX74xMLZY1B4AdDv5 M1nurj4sLjmhecTaT3DbtWsrEW4yWKr/sZ7XfVQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , bug-guix@gnu.org, 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti writes: >> Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program res= tricted >> to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program >> restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. >> > This is, by (some) definition, non free. Yes. >> It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM without >> the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on that >> medium, including the propagator. >> > >> In the case of snes9x no one is able to monetize the software, including >> the creators, because many people have a stake in the non-commercial >> clause, but the software is freely modifiable and you can share it >> non-commercially. >> >> It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long list >> of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do the >> online-lookup. >> >> We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online co= mics >> either. >> > Comics aren't software. Free as in Freedom can apply only to software, AF= AIK It can apply to non-software, see for example the Wikipedia and Stackoverflow. I experience that regularly since I=E2=80=99m writing a GPL-licensed roleplaying book: it uses graphics from Battle For Wesnoth, under GPL, and getting cc by-sa GPL-compatible was a major pain point for many years -> https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/by-sa-gpl >> Installing the fastest and most compatible free software cores by >> default (pre-installed) would minimize the effect of cores bound to >> non-commercial use being available online without restricting the users >> in using RetroArch =E2=80=94 and it would make retroarch more convenient= to use. > > If I understand correctly (i.e. shipping free cores with our retroarch > distribution, while still allowing non-free software download from the > software), I half-way agree with you. However, IMO, we should not encoura= ge > the use of non free software, at all. Those non-free cores available in o= ne > click, and a user might not even know that 1. s/he is downloading some ki= nd > of software and 2. that this software is non-free (no license details). Looking at the interface *if you have some cores installed* it first presents those cores and only afterwards says "download core". And for available cores there=E2=80=99s actually a license entry (but that currently says N/A =E2=80=94 which looks like a bug to me). So while there is no license in the listing, you are presented with the license before running a core. > I was upset in discovering that I downloaded a non-free core, and I > realized just because of the ".so.zip" name. If upstream they change > the name to "core.zip", future users might not even understand what > they are doing. The .so file ending is already something that takes domain knowledge to recognize. But not from the domain of the program: The domain of the program are emulators and roms. For these "this uses a core for the specified hardware" is pretty clear. > Finally, in a purely reproducible interest, having random software > downloaded is just bad. I agree in principle but not in practice, because we also ship npm, pip, gem, package.el, cargo, maven, =E2=80=A6 Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3ff+EACgkQE++NRSQD w+sO6g//UJXvp1rtiQf0AjIEJ1+MLqK1z8vVUvKMwpdoo2/x+T8U/Uz/iiKH9+TF wWx+nEaPogJ19rLtSgxpVCn9WGqijdRY21KWT/AdKMhxqY6Wc1E+PKvswfpCfNtR 2D2XJhYdUckQCCWgee8myli9mazC8mrj2tHTDpmKE24pVgv0A0ltCOpwDZIvsJk6 U/pf2GCAcB5dnblVD0nvQleqkDufkLzsY8y6Aj4oIeQJZ/3pClmlXkZpZlBgHM1V BhbJT0Hq7OrqYiUvjKW00/wIv9NAbBnXuAE6oXb9cJQlU5q9BL72cBEuQCWk5xTz K7sVCpjDLQETCyQFf3LrOTATNkr0MFrmFGBDRxx6smxwohBsmTcPnVYNhbl42kt8 C+cXv3jkTXqd5CvzRBkjErd0J2fpjiPxl0zH4b2hD0R9W5gJkc0JzTJAxKVWG+ML B3JNreEzho3Ei2igoMw20RJwZu1aRCEcWMmeoMZUwra4bAK8b6UdmRcpDlW9LzPW ZodGOVGxNwzcj2rhJJwiRjIiSkZK80O5BGZPVor+D+sVv09fJm655UH6yBBxoIUx RKotVfCnvPwuiINq0LLKAHCZwEKRV6zV/6t7jIflRwaDjQM9LBmhQa7BvoRUZGLN 5dQuF21npeYRjNiFT1G7IjyQWa4PijPe84+D3GrmX2b0wt3zM+yIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd33/lAAoJENzPDbMLwQVI0DwD/jV0GXmY o/GWZF3C5FUJ7F8xI8+hyUa+oCXUVrJVgMy3WGM3UEEWPyg1CLvFH9H8PNG8u71D 0t/sLbX8QO1dp/WqWEZRofGOik/03m7Z6dTBtbJf+5CTmeFnIK7LVca+JVfO3QG0 ODUoX/krdRiSeRi5MpcqZFJtWKYrV5z7sG/V =V33r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--