From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 11 16:56:10 2019 Received: (at 36071) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jun 2019 20:56:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hanoM-00079t-J8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:56:10 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21242) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hanoL-00079l-Ie for 36071@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 16:56:06 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1560286549; cv=none; d=zoho.com; s=zohoarc; b=dUnkwQdag079UKeifQXBoyQtSHi/qFp/BHBWjSpObMXyZHY+WbWztlph5Dugp7bhEAePnFF3g54tbBHQ/qDOybPOXd3FMYAHSEQZvV/QHNFtDArlxbfJggZWGnm8qPtPn299mogGSFerrrvfa0LHiquzCb6wsX0J5bcd4vK13x0= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zoho.com; s=zohoarc; t=1560286549; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To:ARC-Authentication-Results; bh=pUV7ZATqPihWpVpN/prk2EXaBcSjO84aR4nng9KVsAU=; b=l+XKvybzQrYtLnOKQZzSUcOjANxHrKLCGr4uZ89AANz4ZQXhImTtdTGv9TOGt6HspK8KN6NuZdHTSXesKDZ/sxK4dchdrwa76wnhUXvSeBw5nOkQ4fcGuubpLg9Sk0p4N8GqtjyGPEvmAVCw8jm8VOIGDLwwC+My281m3qRJy9g= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zoho.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1560286549; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; l=2453; bh=pUV7ZATqPihWpVpN/prk2EXaBcSjO84aR4nng9KVsAU=; b=bgexuixAG6RL6kqLf9kZbgWgXte5zlUvS8H3bnklbOTE9RNKeINN8PYHYF9nPcm2 CbO6qNZ1hlWzq88orTFRb/BcAb/7LPG7f4hOdIEnqrt3UgSUsByZwuIdSOLTxLFcbEr yvVyFGDYgzbmrtGcemUECM4Mb/h8xX/EtW7QjCfQ= Received: from localhost (p54AD4B20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.75.32]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1560286548937558.5461715306244; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) References: <20190603130611.32142-1-glv@posteo.net> <87v9xkyrzz.fsf@gnu.org> <20190605192625.3c567ce7@yamatai> <87tvd3wyhx.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.2 From: Ricardo Wurmus To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: [bug#36071] [PATCH] gnu: Add leela-zero. In-reply-to: <87tvd3wyhx.fsf@gnu.org> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 22:55:45 +0200 Message-ID: <87lfy7alke.fsf@elephly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36071 Cc: Guillaume LE VAILLANT , 36071@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >> Ludovic Court=C3=A8s a =C3=A9crit : >> >>> Does the game run at all if we don=E2=80=99t download additional network >>> weight data? >>> >>> There=E2=80=99s a debate as to whether trained neural network parameter= s can >>> be considered =E2=80=9Csource=E2=80=9D: . >> >> The game needs neural network weights to run. The user must download >> a file with the weights (usually from >> , which is updated daily I think) >> and put it in '$HOME/.local/share/leela-zero/'. >> >> Do you think some weigths (e.g. taken from >> , for reproducibility) should be >> embedded in the package? > > My point is about whether these trained neural network data are > something that we could distribute per the FSDG. > > The LWN article above mentions =E2=80=98leela-zero=E2=80=99. In Debian (= which has a > different policy), =E2=80=98leela-zero=E2=80=99 has apparently been accep= ted, but > without the data, and with a link to said data (as in your original > patch): > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D903634 > > Perhaps we could do the same, but I=E2=80=99d like to hear what others th= ink. We need to ensure that the software necessary to train the networks is included. Is this the case? Distributing the training data is not an option, as I see it, because the files are very large. I don=E2=80=99t know about the networks that are offered for download at https://leela.online-go.com/networks/. These are files of very different sizes, and it is neither clear what license applies nor how they were arrived at. They are zipped up magic numbers. Arguably a similar statement could be made about impulse response files for audio filters (such as convolution reverbs). While we offer convolution filters (such as the =E2=80=9Cir=E2=80=9D package), we don=E2= =80=99t include data files. Had I not made the link to network weights for ML models I would have considered impulse response files no different from e.g. game assets. Now I=E2=80=99m not so sure any more. I don=E2=80=99t really know what it really means for data to be =E2=80=9Cnon-functional=E2=80=9D. Back to this patch: I think it=E2=80=99s fine to accept it as long as the software necessary for training is included. -- Ricardo